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#1 SamualACarver

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 02:46 PM

I got an email from my ISP yesterday here is part of it.

Recently, we received an e-mail from Twentieth Century FOX stating that someone using your connection is illegally downloading the movie “The Simpsons (Animated Feature)” and requesting that T6 Broadband interject and cease this behavior. In accordance to our Acceptable Use Policy, located at , it is our responsibility to lower your speeds in order to continue servicing our customers. You may not necessarily be voluntarily performing the operation. Viruses can actually perform downloading operations to harm the computer or the user.

So Somehow 20th century knew I had DLed their movie and so did my ISP. Since this happened I have been reading about anonymous surfing and I dont have any anonymous surfing program or use a proxy. I have FWs and Spywar protection programs plus CCleaner to clean all of the junk from my comp. How did 20 Fox and/or my know I DLed that movie? Does my ISP know every site I visit and everything I DL? I had DLed from a bit torrent site. Now I am a little afraid that maybe I DLed something else that I could get in trouble for? I have DLed some audio books and Ebooks and games for my PDA. Some say right on them for public use or freeware, others dont say anything, but I figured if you can so easily go to a bit torrent site by just typing "bit torrent" in your search engine. Go to the bit torrent site then search for whatever you want there and DL it that it wouldnt be Illegal. How could something that is illegal be so easy to access?

Anyway could anyone here tell me how they were able to know I dled the movie? Like I said I DLed the movie from a bit torrent site but I didnt sign up for the site or leave an email or anything. I think they got it through my ISP number or IP address? I have been looking at some anonymous surfing sites but I dont know or understand much about it and I was looking for a specific yes or no if my ISP can see what sites I visit and what I DL. Can they? If so how can I stop them? It doesnt seem right that they can see the sites I visit and what I DL. To me it feels the same as if they tapped my phone line.

BTW I did resolve the issue with my ISP I told them it was a mistake I just saw a link to the movie and DLed thinking nothing was wrong cause there are a lot of stuff to DL on the Internet and how am I supposed to know what is or isnt ok to DL. I also told them I deleted the movie which I did. They said everything was ok and that they hadnt even slowed my connection yet and wouldnt.

Thanks in advance
Sam

#2 Mrs Murphy

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 03:45 PM

Hi there,

I can't speak to how they caught you, but I would like to encourage you to do some reading on intellectual property and copyright law. I'm studying that area of law as a profession, because I'm passionate about it. It's easy to go to a pawn shop and buy stolen goods. However because people are aware that this is common and illegal they don't generally assume that just because it can be done it must be legal. The same goes for any crime. It's possible for any one of us to go out and kill someone, by your logic (with a decent dose of hyperbole ;) ) that would imply it is legal and right to do so. Software, movie, music, literary and any number of other forms of piracy are unfortunately rampant. It's incredibly ignorant and selfish of society to consider that they should not have to pay for the author's hard work. The recent writer's strike in the USA is a perfect example. As Jon Stewart said last night on Larry King Live (not exact words), it's amazing that it got to the point of strike, as all they were doing was requesting that they be paid for the work they had been done, out of all areas of profit made by those overseeing the distribution.

For a start there is a concise summary at Becta Schools (a UK site) at http://schools.becta...t...is&rid=9983 in which you may be interested. Or search any relevant keywords on any search engine for many more.

In addition to the issue of whose property you are stealing when making use of these "free" downloads, if it is not coming from a legal source then you really don't know what you are downloading with the file. It is important when downloading anything to ensure it is as close to the original source as possible.

I know I didnt answer your primary questions, I'm still learning in this technical side of the field myself, but I wanted to at least begin to give an understanding of the breadth of issues your situation touches on.

Have a good one :thumbup:

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#3 SamualACarver

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 05:35 PM

Thanks Mrs Murphy for the info

It's easy to go to a pawn shop and buy stolen goods. However because people are aware that this is common and illegal they don't generally assume that just because it can be done it must be legal.


That is a pretty good comparison. I know that it is illegal to buy stolen goods. But as far as know (correct me if I am wrong) I can legally buy anything sold at a pawn shop (minus something under the table, by that I mean not buying something from there because I know the owner and he holds something he knows is stolen for me or anything like that) Right? With out needing to worry about walking out of the pawnshop and being arrested for buying something from there that was sitting on the shelves available to the public. That turns out to be stolen. I mean how would I possible know it is stolen? All of this is true right? You have studied it. If its not true and I could buy something at a pawnshop that was being sold to the public then be arrested when I leave for buying stolen goods. That just wouldnt be right. The Pawn shop should have never been there in the first place. The police should have busted them a long time ago for having stolen goods. Its not like they were hard to find. It would be different if it was in some back ally being sold out of someones garage. You get what I mean?

I feel like it is the same thing with a site that you DL something from. With there being so many legal things to DL that look and might be in the same place as illegal things and also at a place and easily accessable to the public (just like a pawn shop) How is a person supposed to know the difference? Like I said some of the media is free to the public. Sometimes it is stated with the DL description sometimes its not. I DLed an Audio Book it didnt say in the DL description but at the beginning of each part it says "Name of company.com are works that are open to the public" Something like that I dont remember exactly. So that obviously is ok to DL. The one film I DLed wasnt ok. I have DLed other films that said at the start of the film they sere freeware and were ok. How am I supposed to know the difference? I would understand if to get to the site to DL illegal movies you had to learn some secret web address and learn a password etc..etc..(like finding some back ally pawn shop that sells what you know is illegal goods) I could understand then blaming someone for DLing/buying something illegally. But if those site are so easily found and they are giving out stuff illegally why are those sites still up? Or at least still easily accessable?

I am not directing this just at you Mrs Murphy just expressing my feelings on the subject and looking for anyone elses opinion it is a good topic to talk about. Your more professional legal opinion would be good to hear though. Like if it is safe to buy something on the shelf being sold to the public at a pawn shop, and if it turns out to be stolen can the customer get in trouble?

Plus if anyone has an answer to my first questions.

BTW I Dled the movie because it was there and so easy. I usually rent movies from Netflix so I could have gotten it that way to. But it was there and I could watch it right after I DLed so I did. Its not like it kept me from buying it. I buy very few movie because I rent through Netflix. If I really like a movie a lot I will buy it. So by my DLing the movie it didnt take away from anyones profit. I actually saved Netflix some postage and a little more life on their DVD.

Thanks again for the response Mrs Murphy
and in advance to anyone else Thank You
Sam

#4 Mrs Murphy

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 06:20 PM

I don't at all take it personally Sam, in fact I enjoy the discussion. The same applies from me to you, that I'm not attacking you in any way just discussing a topic of mutual interest ^_^

But as far as know (correct me if I am wrong) I can legally buy anything sold at a pawn shop (minus something under the table, by that I mean not buying something from there because I know the owner and he holds something he knows is stolen for me or anything like that) Right?

Correct, you cannot be charged with Receiving stolen goods if you received them "In good faith," however they may in many cases be seized.

However, the point relating to the Pawn shop was not something that I used in reference to the actually legality of downloading files, but to the assumption that it was legal. While illegal pawn operations should not exist, they do and it is well known. Not always easy to catch either, so I'm not exactly in favour of the consumer abdicating responsibility to the police to remove the entire problem. The consumer should be working with the police for their own benefit as property owners. Yes I get what you mean, but I think it's an irresponsible way of looking at things. I believe very strongly that we should all make use of the many resources available to us to buy/sell/rent responsibly be it online or otherwise.

How is a person supposed to know the difference? Like I said some of the media is free to the public. Sometimes it is stated with the DL description sometimes its not. I DLed an Audio Book it didnt say in the DL description but at the beginning of each part it says "Name of company.com are works that are open to the public" Something like that I dont remember exactly. So that obviously is ok to DL. The one film I DLed wasnt ok. I have DLed other films that said at the start of the film they sere freeware and were ok. How am I supposed to know the difference? I would understand if to get to the site to DL illegal movies you had to learn some secret web address and learn a password etc..etc..(like finding some back ally pawn shop that sells what you know is illegal goods) I could understand then blaming someone for DLing/buying something illegally. But if those site are so easily found and they are giving out stuff illegally why are those sites still up? Or at least still easily accessable?


Well, I guess you are getting an education then. Plenty of illegal material is available online :p easily. Most of it gets shut down eventually, many innocent people can stumble across it in the meantime. Check carefully any fine print or terms of use sections of the sites you use, as you may find that you have officially accepted that responsibility you'd so love to deny.

Your more professional legal opinion would be good to hear though.


Please don't give me more credit than is due, I am merely an interested observer cum student at this stage in my career ;)

So by my DLing the movie it didnt take away from anyones profit. I actually saved Netflix some postage and a little more life on their DVD.


Yes it did. Netflix factors their postage and DVD life costs into their pricing, they would still make a profit from their exchange with you. They also have a license to use the product in the way that they do, hence your action also affects the original artist.

When you purchase intellectual property you have certain conditions which you are bound by. You may re-sell the material in which case the conditions are transferred to the new owner. For example, from my own copy of Pan's Labyrinth: "The motion picture contained in this DVD is protected under copyright laws. This DVD is for private home viewing only and is not licensed for any other use. All other Rights Reserved. Any copying or public performance of such motion picture is strictly prohibited and may subject the offender to civil liability and sever criminal penalties. (Distributing company name and address)"

Note that it says the motion picture contained in this DVD, and not the DVD itself. So even if there is no warning on a site you download it from, or an additional notice to say that it is free has been doctored to the beginning of the film, if you have not acquired it from a licensed distributor, rental agency, or purchased the hard copy second hand you would be in violation of Copyright. You don't abdicate responsibility in this case just because the site misled you, and mislead you they will. They are making money from other sources who pay based on the amount of unsuspecting visitors.

There are many shady areas in this issue with regard to what you can get and where, all the more reason for you to take an active interest in what you are doing, Unfortunately ignorance of the law, and the methods used by other lawbreakers, is not a defence.

Does that make things a little clearer? Sorry if I'm rambling, I get all het up. LOL Feel free to ask if anythings unclear or if you have more questions.

So can anyone tell Sam how his theft would have been detected by Fox? I'm thinking maybe the site or the source of the file got busted and that's where the info came from? *shrug*

Cheers
Mrs Murphy
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#5 Budfred

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 01:29 AM

The ISPs all have a part of their terms of use that say they can and will report illegal activities conducted on their networks if they are asked to do so... If you download copyrighted material, it is likely you will eventually get caught...

This argument has been discussed ad nauseum all over forums all over the web... People keep arguing for the right to take copyrighted materials and the people who produce keep arguing for the right to be paid for their efforts... The courts support copyrights, so if you are caught, you have little practical recourse... This forum will not help people attempt to help people find ways to avoid detection... We are here to help people against criminals, not to facilitate criminal behavior...
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#6 Swink

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:37 AM

The movie and music industries are going to have to change. But they don't want to. Just like we have to find new ways to power the world so does the movie and music industry. They have been making their monies for far too long. Make the price of a movie 99 cents and people will pay for a good quality copy. Why waste your time downloading a free crappy copy when you can drop a buck and watch a good quality movie. The power of the people is to download. Last time I looked downloading a movie never killed anyone. Buying from a pawn shop, is probably stolen and someone may have died for it.

#7 Budfred

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 03:40 PM

You can argue whether it is fair or not as much as you would like... It is still illegal, this forum does not support illegal activity and, if you are caught, they can take you for thousands of dollars and maybe even some jail time...
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#8 sarahw

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 08:59 AM

Some people put up fake torrents and files so when you download them they collect get your IP address. It can be hard to tell which is fake and which is real so your better of just clicking on the itunes store and buying it for a dollar or two.

The problem I see is the the industry is always to slow to respond. People want to download movies and music but instead of offering people this service, they sat in the corner and cried about napster and other sites untill itunes offered legal downloads. They did the same thing when the VCR and cassette came out, they complained alot, but, in the long run, they made even more profits. They should be able to see the shifting trend and act accordingly.

Where do alot of these movies come from? Alot are leaked from the studios, especially during the award season. Alot are just cameras in the cinema recording the movie. People have been selling these bootleg copies at markets years before broadband speeds made downloading these huge movie files possible.

If the entertainment companies acted with some imagination or with out-of-the-box thoughts, we would see less illegal downloads and subsequently less Malware infections from filesharing and crack sites.

#9 maloc

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 09:23 AM

for real dude? "Can they?"
YOU KNOW downloading movies are illegal right mannnnnn? People invest their lives making a movie. Only way you can get a hold of a movie is if you pay or see it on tv!
"Can you download a movie?"
All movie downloads are illegal man. Pirating. You know this right? You should be verrrrrrry thankful you didn't go to prison or fined $250,000+


I got an email from my ISP yesterday here is part of it.

Recently, we received an e-mail from Twentieth Century FOX stating that someone using your connection is illegally downloading the movie “The Simpsons (Animated Feature)” and requesting that T6 Broadband interject and cease this behavior. In accordance to our Acceptable Use Policy, located at , it is our responsibility to lower your speeds in order to continue servicing our customers. You may not necessarily be voluntarily performing the operation. Viruses can actually perform downloading operations to harm the computer or the user.

So Somehow 20th century knew I had DLed their movie and so did my ISP. Since this happened I have been reading about anonymous surfing and I dont have any anonymous surfing program or use a proxy. I have FWs and Spywar protection programs plus CCleaner to clean all of the junk from my comp. How did 20 Fox and/or my know I DLed that movie? Does my ISP know every site I visit and everything I DL? I had DLed from a bit torrent site. Now I am a little afraid that maybe I DLed something else that I could get in trouble for? I have DLed some audio books and Ebooks and games for my PDA. Some say right on them for public use or freeware, others dont say anything, but I figured if you can so easily go to a bit torrent site by just typing "bit torrent" in your search engine. Go to the bit torrent site then search for whatever you want there and DL it that it wouldnt be Illegal. How could something that is illegal be so easy to access?

Anyway could anyone here tell me how they were able to know I dled the movie? Like I said I DLed the movie from a bit torrent site but I didnt sign up for the site or leave an email or anything. I think they got it through my ISP number or IP address? I have been looking at some anonymous surfing sites but I dont know or understand much about it and I was looking for a specific yes or no if my ISP can see what sites I visit and what I DL. Can they? If so how can I stop them? It doesnt seem right that they can see the sites I visit and what I DL. To me it feels the same as if they tapped my phone line.

BTW I did resolve the issue with my ISP I told them it was a mistake I just saw a link to the movie and DLed thinking nothing was wrong cause there are a lot of stuff to DL on the Internet and how am I supposed to know what is or isnt ok to DL. I also told them I deleted the movie which I did. They said everything was ok and that they hadnt even slowed my connection yet and wouldnt.

Thanks in advance
Sam



#10 LessThanJake

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 06:17 PM

ISP's are getting better and better at detecting this sort of thing. You do not have as much privacy as you may believe.
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#11 Charmz

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 07:29 PM

Ouch. You gotta be careful. ISP's are getting smarter and smarter.

and, ISP's can see everything you do.

#12 Tuxedo Jack

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 05:19 PM

Ouch. You gotta be careful. ISP's are getting smarter and smarter.

and, ISP's can see everything you do.


And that is why those of us who worry about such things use encryption for everything.

AES + Twofish + Serpent + 60-character-passphrase = pretty safe, but never safe enough.
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#13 Conch

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 04:34 PM

I respect the law, ISP rules, & Copyright protection.
For example, you created an image, someone stole it and edited it. Or perhaps, you signed a contract to make a movie, You put all your effort in, along with all the people supporting you with the movie, but yet, you may only claim 20% of the money you should be really earning. or even a game for that matter, I'm sure you would be pretty p***ed off, the world revolves around money for support, for each and every individual.

Stealing a movie via free torrent sites or whatever it be, is like going into the DVD store and taking them out without paying. If you're going to get caught in the DVD shop, you'll get caught online. Simple as that.

I admit.. Yes, I used to deal with piracy, but what's the point? I purchase all my own DVD's now. I would rather pay the production company, than to steal from them.

If you can't face up to the facts, then maybe your ISP should suspend your connection.

#14 mikey

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 01:29 PM

Why can't so many users understand that providers can see everything you do over TCP?

Related article; http://news.idg.no/c...E50051E8A5DF3F9

#15 Mrbiggbrain

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:30 PM

I'm a big believer in GPL and other open source software as well as in the power of Creative Commons license. I believe all software, books, movies, and media should be free to the world. However for this to be true, for any of these visions to be realized we need copyright laws.

If i write a piece of GPL software I hold a copyright and get to license it how I want. Maybe I say, go ahead and download it, even go ahead and sell it! Modify it? Sure!

Look at the GPL, it does not say you can use it for anything you want, it says you are required to follow such and such a rule. Yet every year there are GPL lawsuits because someone did not release the source, or give credit, etc.

And in response to knowing if good are stolen you are indeed liable even if you buy it from a pawn shop if there is good cause to show you should have known. Buying a $1000 TV for $200 is not a good idea because your knowledge of the subject should tell you the item should not be offered for that price.

If you think a movie should be $0.99 then don't buy it till its $0.99. If you believe a song should be free, don't buy it until its offered for free. If publishes see noone is stealing and noone is buying they will question why and change... otherwise its just theft.

#16 Valinorum

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:00 AM

Looks like you will need to be more careful from next time. Beside if you like the item buy it.




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